[turbanator]

This is ovh we are talking about, they now have so many clients there's no customer priority or care. So they wack on a load of setup fee's on to try prevent spammers, not taking long term clients into consideration.

So much for "Thank You..your loyalty to us is appreciated"

I've been with ovh for a few years now, they have never done anything to help us ( be it discount for a big amount of servers, or a paid intervention on a kimsufi ) we've had easy 50 servers in total with a total spending around £10,000.

Just give up they will never change, they will keep the current setup fees as they are.

Ben,

i dont mind the current set up fee for newer customers..and new customers should really not say anything..since it is actually goona save them after the first month considering the older prices of 30 pounds+ on some of the pro servers and all...

but for older customers like you who have spent so much waiving a 49.99 pound set up fee in front of a 10 000 pounds per month fees..is like nothing.

[BenB]

Neil u work for a company u must believe in some customer value right? Dont you think OVH should remove set up fees for customers that have been loyal to the company for years? a customer who has kept renewing his server/servers for more than a year..he needs to pay set up fee to order a newer one? u are just making him go away..rather than saying "Thank You..your loyalty to us is appreciated"..

The best surviving companies always value there customers..Hell i go to one of my local grocery stores..so much..that after 3-4 months i started getting discounts there from the owner just bcz i was a returning customer everytime..it just shows how much the business cares about there customers because of whom they are there in the first place

This is ovh we are talking about, they now have so many clients there's no customer priority or care. So they wack on a load of setup fee's on to try prevent spammers, not taking long term clients into consideration.

So much for "Thank You..your loyalty to us is appreciated"

I've been with ovh for a few years now, they have never done anything to help us ( be it discount for a big amount of servers, or a paid intervention on a kimsufi ) we've had easy 50 servers in total with a total spending around £10,000.

Just give up they will never change, they will keep the current setup fees as they are.

Ben,

[turbanator]

If you click the link, it is actually down to 65 (http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings.lasso?isp=ovh.net) we are pro-active on it, but spamhaus do not update when the IP stops sending spam, so we have to go through each IP and verify and suspend. Its not an easy job, but we are working on it.

Neil u work for a company u must believe in some customer value right? Dont you think OVH should remove set up fees for customers that have been loyal to the company for years? a customer who has kept renewing his server/servers for more than a year..he needs to pay set up fee to order a newer one? u are just making him go away..rather than saying "Thank You..your loyalty to us is appreciated"..

The best surviving companies always value there customers..Hell i go to one of my local grocery stores..so much..that after 3-4 months i started getting discounts there from the owner just bcz i was a returning customer everytime..it just shows how much the business cares about there customers because of whom they are there in the first place

[Neil]

OVH has been hovering in the top 10 Spamhaus for as long as I've been here, and now they're listed #1. Yet OVH hasn't even hinted at blocking outgoing port 25. It's not a drastic measure IMO, it's a *needed* measure! Some networks are now starting to block OVH IP ranges (as I had found out the hard way) - I don't want my server to end up in an "IP Ghetto" due to bad neighbours.

Edit: You know what, I'll shame you into doing something with the spam situation, because each time it's the customer that has to point this out. Take a little more pro-active stance, would you?!

If you click the link, it is actually down to 65 (http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings.lasso?isp=ovh.net) we are pro-active on it, but spamhaus do not update when the IP stops sending spam, so we have to go through each IP and verify and suspend. Its not an easy job, but we are working on it.

[Myatu]

... OVH can introduce some relatively easy measures to stop this.

Block port 25 and enable it when you provide a social security number or copy of passport which matches the one with your card number etc.
...

OVH has been hovering in the top 10 Spamhaus for as long as I've been here, and now they're listed #1. Yet OVH hasn't even hinted at blocking outgoing port 25. It's not a drastic measure IMO, it's a *needed* measure! Some networks are now starting to block OVH IP ranges (as I had found out the hard way) - I don't want my server to end up in an "IP Ghetto" due to bad neighbours.

Edit: You know what, I'll shame you into doing something with the spam situation, because each time it's the customer that has to point this out. Take a little more pro-active stance, would you?!

[tallen]

Abuse carried out under OVH servers is most likely due to compromised servers. By introducing a setup fee it does not stop abuse.
Abuse such as DDOS, Spam etc would never be carried out in the individual's name as it is highly illegal.
OVH can introduce some relatively easy measures to stop this.

Block port 25 and enable it when you provide a social security number or copy of passport which matches the one with your card number etc.
Block servers outputting very high levels of packets with desired port of 80/8080 etc.
Disable servers on Spamhous list: OVH has a botnet! : Yambo Financials
http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings.lasso?isp=ovh.net

You are making making it really expensive to existing customers, for a few individuals actions. You could make much more profit removing the setup fee and selling more servers.
I fail to see how a automated system that installs an operating system costs £49.99. Servers are only kept offline after the duration for around 5 days (Minimal cost).
No one in the right mind is going to spend £49.99 to have a £9.99 atom server setup!! How many RPS servers and C-05Gs have you sold recently?
I mean how unfair is it! You can actually buy Celeron servers for just £80 (New!) -(Dell Poweredge 750)




There are many other competitors out there OVH which are just going to eat up your market! Please reverse this decision! For your own sake and the customers!

[Emx]

Why exactly are you complaining about this?

Do people actually care about copyright infringement?

People don't care at all, but OVH should. Or shouldn't unless it gets warned of illegal content on servers they provide by third side?

[Euan]

All the emails sent to abuse are read and, if the evidence are enough, then action is taken. If the information is not complete or not complete incriminatory of illicit behaviour, then our legal team will ignore the email.

* constantaly complains about people abusing service *

*ignores emails notifying of it, rather than requesting more information*

God you guys really are your own worst enemies, complain about service abuse and put no effort into resolving it.

[marks]

I've sent the following email to few OVH's support/abuse emails, never got answer. Might you consider this problem in here?

All the emails sent to abuse are read and, if the evidence are enough, then action is taken. If the information is not complete or not complete incriminatory of illicit behaviour, then our legal team will ignore the email.

Therefore, if you claim something to abuse and nothing is done in a reasonable amount of time (24 hours), send it to the customer support so that we'll have a look and we'll check if there is any problem with the information given.

There is nothing illegal about a torrent tracker as long as that tracker does not allow access to copyrighted content. And even then some courts rule that the tracker is not actually committing a crime as no copyrighted data is stored on the actual server itself.

you're right on one thing: if the torrent software is used to distribute legal content, there is no problem.
but you're wrong on another thing: if the machine is giving users access to illegal content, even if this is not stored in the server, that's also illegal at OVH.

Check the T&C:
ovh.co.uk >> Supports >> Legal documents >> Special conditions for website hosting services on a dedicated server
Section 6.1(f): Customer obligations regarding content in the server
Section 7.3: right to terminate the contract

[Razakel]

I've sent the following email to few OVH's support/abuse emails, never got answer. Might you consider this problem in here?

Why exactly are you complaining about this?

Do people actually care about copyright infringement?

[RapidSpeeds]

There is nothing illegal about a torrent tracker as long as that tracker does not allow access to copyrighted content. And even then some courts rule that the tracker is not actually committing a crime as no copyrighted data is stored on the actual server itself.

Exactly - thats how TPB is still up and running (I know the tracker is down now, but that's from a different issue)

The only reason tpb staff got the jail (and only for 1yr) - was simply because they were fully aware copyrighted material was on there tracker, and had several notices including a few from the DCMA.

[turbanator]

There is nothing illegal about a torrent tracker as long as that tracker does not allow access to copyrighted content. And even then some courts rule that the tracker is not actually committing a crime as no copyrighted data is stored on the actual server itself.

yep indeed

[freshwire]

There is nothing illegal about a torrent tracker as long as that tracker does not allow access to copyrighted content. And even then some courts rule that the tracker is not actually committing a crime as no copyrighted data is stored on the actual server itself.

[gigabit]

Torrents and P2P isn't illegal itself. The BBC use it for iPlayer...

[Emx]

Seedboxes are not illegal.

Also you would need a lot more evidence before the request is considered.

And torrent trackers are also not illegal?

[freshwire]

Seedboxes are not illegal.

Also you would need a lot more evidence before the request is considered.

[Emx]

I've sent the following email to few OVH's support/abuse emails, never got answer. Might you consider this problem in here?

I would like to inform you about illegal actions on your servers, which directly abuse and violate your TOS. By it, you explicitely disallow any torrent/tracker/illegal activities.
These 2 sites, with zippyshare.com as a group of 40+ servers at OVH, directly violate your TOS, and should be closed as soon as possible:
http://seedplace.org.uk/ (selling explicitely 'seedboxes', shared servers for illegaly torrent activity)
http://xtremespeeds.net/ (this one went even further and has a torrent tracker there. it's strictly forbidden too)

These two sites are just a needle in a haystack. Starting with closing these two would surely be positive thing, since this cant be tolerated. Such sites have large network activity and many connections and therefore hog other users on the network. OVH, staff, please prove that you're number one server company when it comes to reliability, security, legality and speed. I look forward to your responses and actions.

[RapidSpeeds]

I agree on this "Remove them for existing customers that have an existing service"

I agree with this as well.

As if i'm gonna pay a year up front just to save a measley £58.74

I don't pay my Phone bill a year in advance, I don't pay my Sky bill a year in advance, I don't pay my mortage a year in advance, I don't pay my council tax a year in advance, I don't pay my mobile phone contract a year in advance (and yes, I know some things like mobile/home phone bills will vary, but it's the same principle)

The minimum payment is £275.88 (£281.86 as of Jan) for a C-05G or take the hit and pay £49.99 + £19.99 + VAT.

hrmmm, I wonder what option the 'abusers' will pick

Guess who has been shafted? The loyal customer

[turbanator]

I agree on this "Remove them for existing customers that have an existing service"

i agree too

[*Mikee*]

I agree on this "Remove them for existing customers that have an existing service"

[Rahxie]

All the setup fee's and restrictions for legitimate customers have put me off renting additional servers with OVH. I have had to go elsewhere and obviously that means OVH are loosing out on more sales.

I'd recommend removing the setup fee's, or even remove them for existing customers that have an existing service.

[freshwire]

This all depends... was the server under attack from the time you first bought it?

[DigitalDaz]

Sorry, totally disagree with that analysis. How does an external attack consitute a faulty server?

All our servers are susceptible to attack, these are unmanaged boxes, I agree that maybe OVH could help out and maybe block an IP at an upstream router but its certainly not faulty.

[kingofsplooge]

Don't get me wrong, the setup fee is acceptable for honest customers, however what I disagree with is the abuse side of things.

I bought a low grade kimsufi back at the start of the year, and it was delivered successfully, however all attempts to download simple packages from repo's failed.
Remote control via VNC failed.

I placed a ticket into OVH, to be informed that the server was being attacked, and that when they took it out of their safety firewall, the server was again, attacked.

None of this was my fault, ordering a server which was being attacked from an outside source.

So what was my reply?
We'll refund you, or supply you with a new server?

Nope, it was along the lines of "screw you, we've got your money, order a new one".

Infact, truth-be-told, it was "all information for the attacker is in your manager", looking in the manager showed no attacks from outside IP's, or any IP info at all.
So I couldn't contact the ISP of the IP, I couldn't ask them to block the IP.

So I lost £30 on a server, which OVH refused to credit back, although they confirmed there were issues.

This swayed me for a while, to the point of considering dropping all services and going elsewhere.
At that time, I owned 2 servers, and the new one was a replacement for 1 of the 2.
I felt annoyed, and the fact that the UK "Tech support" was useless, I felt alone.

To get to where I'm going with this, YES I want the abuse on OVH servers to stop, and if it relates to DoS, definately, but to help the customer further too.
You've got systems in place to deal with most things, so you claim, and I do feel the setup fee's are worth while, however when it comes to loyal customers, who've been with you for a while, it should be reduced (as someone has previously said), and if something is deployed which is being abused, to support that customer who has taken the fall for the product - more.

Looking through my emails, my first order with yourselves, goes back to March 08. So I've been with you for coming upto 2 years.

Wheres my refund on a faulty product (Sales of Goods Act), something I ended up returning to you because YOU couldn't stop the abuse, and I lost money to you!

Another lining in your pocket, eh OVH?

Just become a better provider, please!

I guess I needed to get that off my chest, however the issues I had, were from external abuse, and not through any fault of mine.

[tallen]

Well this is how I look at it:

Most hackers using OVH servers would have gained access to vulnerable servers, so it would not actually be the person who owns the server performing the spam/ part of a botnet. Buying their own servers for attacks would be stupid, as they would get caught.
Therefore, introducing setup fees will not actually reduce the number of people using OVH servers for abuse, but the number of customers.

Introducing these setup fees will only put off customers from signing up. New customers who have not experienced OVH servers will simply go to competitors as £70 is the minimum to be spent for just 1 month of a dedicated server.
There is many other competitiors (E.g. digicube in France) who offer the similar spec server as the C-05G for 15 euros per month (However their minimum contractual agreement is 3 months) so 3 months with another competitor for same price as 1 with OVH?, so business will just shift to competitors.

OVH offers really good servers, it just seems they can't make their mind up with pricing.
OVH would probably attract more business if they charged more for short durations (20% more?) rather than longer durations. I hope that OVH change their decision.
An easy way to stop the spam would be to block port 25 unless you can provide a Business registration number.


I don't know how OVH works, but I assume that servers are all in racks already and then put online when someone purchases a server and installed with the designated OS. I can't see what justifies the £49.99 for an automated system.

[Euan]

Lukus people have been suggesting that since day one of setup fee's they do not listen to decent suggestions.

[lukus001]

If a large-ish initial payment of 49.99 is to put off people from buying for abuse, would it not be equally as smart /fair to allow 6-12months to be paid up front and skip any setup fees?

Even an RPS1 @ £9.99, 6 months to a year = £60-£120, the same price it would cost for the first month with a setup fee - clearly the same monetary loss is at stake or even more form the cheapest service you offer alone; providing people who abuse only last for a month...

Since RPS1 is so cheap (£9.99) clearly this is the server of choice for most abuse, so for me, paying £120 up front would be acceptable. A +£49 fee to me appears to be added to pay for something else, like a high ratio of customers who stay for one month on RPS1? Or to quickly pa back equipment costs, afterall if 5 customer all come and go, that £250 for free, gone and wasted.

[freshwire]

I've always thought that when oles referred to "turnover" he meant server churn.

Are you sure? I thought he was talking about a pastry based pudding

[Neil]

I've always thought that when oles referred to "turnover" he meant server churn. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churn_rate

Correct, he means to many servers are ordered for 1 month built and then racked and then cancelled, some of these are also abused.

[gigabit]

Setup fees now existant for the RPSes, I recon there is going to be a huge drop in sales...

[unclebob]

Has the meaning of "turnover" changed? Used to be like revenue? It used to be GOOD to have a HIGH turnover?

I've always thought that when oles referred to "turnover" he meant server churn. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churn_rate

[Myatu]

OVH is an industry that relies on margin, not turnover. So in OVH's case, a high turnover is bad. Think of it as quality vs. quantity.

[gigabit]

Has the meaning of "turnover" changed? Used to be like revenue? It used to be GOOD to have a HIGH turnover?

[gased]

As far as I know Managers (Real managers, who have a degree from BMA(Business & Management Administration) ) from all over the world, when trying to figure out how to solve a problem , they try not to overload, overcharge, call it however you want (depending on the occasion) their clients when having to deal with irritate ones and solve it internal.

Well Oles knows better from anyone out there that manages the biggest companies. He is loosing profitable customers in order to deal with abuse which i'm pretty sure that concerns only 10% of the ones that register with ovh.I'm pretty sure that you have the medium to regulate the problem, but if you can't then you really should consider leaving the webhosting scene. Webhosting companies have the greatest IT's, enginneers who can do almost everything. You wanna tell us that you can't restrict those problems and the only way is to price up the existing and new legal clients.


Marks did you know that :
Once Oles had the best webhosting company arround whilst the others were trying to deal with traffic limitation, ovh had unlimited bandwidth. After that, when ovh after 8 profitable years decided to apply traffic limitation, because of the supposed turnover. But still OVH had the first word having the cheapest dedicated server around the globe. Moreover now , oles applies setup fees to all servers in order to deal with abuse and ?turnover?!?!. I'm ok with abuse I understand the reason but my opinion is stated above. But turnover??
How the heck did you oles survived 10 years with such a big Turnover????????????

The conclusion? Now that oles knows he can get more customers cause of good reputation, he is trying to overcharge the servers in order to profiteer. But oles that a temporary profit only. You are not gonna be benefit from that.

[Myatu]

... Remember that these changes have been put in place to fight turnover ...

Yes, with a £49.99 setup fee on a £9.99 service, you will certainly accomplish that.

[IainK]

Damn it! I had just ordered my i7-1T because the setup fee was too high on the i7-2T and now it's gone done I feel screwed
I'm not paying £49 to upgrade again :/

[Euan]

thanks for all the feedback, we really like to hear all your comments and ideas and we do take them into account.

Even though, in this case, the changes are already in place, it's good to know all these ideas. If they cannot be applied now, they'll be taking into consideration for future changes.

Remember that these changes have been put in place to fight turnover apart from abuse. Also, consider that we've lowered the setup fees for other servers, so now it's cheaper to order kimsufi i7 and pro servers.

At the same time, we're developing new security tools and systems in our network.

so, thanks for all your comments so far and, please, go on giving us your ideas. Thanks!

Hello Neil,

90-99% of the abuse will be from stolen credit cards, so why exactly would they give a flying **** about setup fee's?

[marks]

thanks for all the feedback, we really like to hear all your comments and ideas and we do take them into account.

Even though, in this case, the changes are already in place, it's good to know all these ideas. If they cannot be applied now, they'll be taking into consideration for future changes.

Remember that these changes have been put in place to fight turnover apart from abuse. Also, consider that we've lowered the setup fees for other servers, so now it's cheaper to order kimsufi i7 and pro servers.

At the same time, we're developing new security tools and systems in our network.

so, thanks for all your comments so far and, please, go on giving us your ideas. Thanks!

[IainK]

Oles: I agree that adding these setup fees will deter people using your network for abuse, but it will not stop them. This will deter more legitimate clients than anything else.

Here is what I propose:
1. Every new customer must pay setup fee for his/her first server.
2. Current customers (over 6 months) should pay 1/2 the setup fee for new servers.
3. Current customers (over 12 months) should not have to pay setup fee for new servers.
4. Block port 25 by default.
5. Block outgoing (server->internet) ICMP by default.
6. Let the customer unblock port 25 and/or icmp by choice. Possibly make them agree to further contracts.

I think it would be very unfair to make customers pay extra for port 25. Some of my customers run webshops, they are sending e-mail to customers completing checkout, sometimes up to 60-120 times an hour. By limiting the amount of email I would be allowed to send would cause real issues. Especially during business hours.

By the way, what happened to OVH requiring cell phone verification and address verification? Surely this is enough to get most of the abusive customers off the network?
Failing that, enforce a policy whereby every new customer must provide you with copy of photo identification. Sure some people will be unhappy about that, but if I can trust you with my data then I can trust you with a copy of my photo id.

[tim2718281]

Just lock port 25 on the low cost servers.

The problem stated was people launching DoS attacks.

Blocking port 25 will not stop that;.

[elvis1]

€49 setup fee on an RPS? You are joking, right?

If you are going to have setup fees to discourage abuse, how about decreasing setup fees for "trusted" clients (people who've had a server with you for a few months and you haven't seen problems with abuse with)? Or giving something extra with the setup fees, say, a RIPE block?

Hell, how about just having one setup fee when you create a NIC handle and then no setup fee to add a server?

This whole idea of badly haxors and turnovers are just to be able to justify prices going up. If a client pays for a year upfront, do you believe ( please answer) he would be a spammer? If I would do the spamming (stupid) thing I would pay the 49 euros and the monthly fee and do it.

On the other hand : I would not like to ruin my reputation If I am meant to have the service for a whole year ( which is what I would have payed for)

[makno]

as i sayd before all i wanted to do was upgrade to a better server and possibly keep the one i'm currently using and i've been using since february. Thanks to the setup fee i'm not going to do it but i agree with those who say it's unusefull to complain here, i guess they made their decision and it's up to them to accept the conseguences in a few months when more and more costumers will be turned away

[Iray]

A terrible decision if put into practice..

Some may say you are trying to gain more profit but adding extra fees.
£49.99 fee on a £10 RPS? does not sound very appetizing to me..

I have been using a RPS for well over 6 months.. why on earth should I be penalised for something others are doing?

[Euan]

I dont think there is any point in feedback on this, the UK guys here dont have any say in any of the running.

I am sure they can forward the general feelings to ole's blackhole inbox and get zero response.

Its safe to say that they will continue to work the way they wish without customer input.

[RapidSpeeds]

Thanks Daz

So no service OVH offer will be available without a set-up fee... Great.

[DigitalDaz]

Regarding the reduction in setup fees on the i7's:

http://forums.ovh.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3132

[RapidSpeeds]

It does piss me off slightly that the i7's are gonna be reduced set up because I just paid for one of those too.

Where does it say that mate? Not seen that.

Also, every company offers a 1month contract, what makes OVH different? It states in 3.2 of the T&C if you purchase more than two servers you are tied into a 12month contract anyways.

Regardless, it's not like a few comments on the forum are gonna change anything - it's going to happen; we shall let the future sales of RPS speak for itself, and I doubt the set-up fee will last very long.

Simple solution as most people have said... port 25 = BLOCKED.

Or as a wise man once said:

Lock port 25 for customers with < 6 months business history. Charge a fee for customers which want port 25 unblocked within the first 6 months.

[MicroChip123]

Dont Bother With Setup Fees as they are stolen cards anyway and they dont care about the cost.

Here are my suggestions
1. Block Port 25 By Default On The Cheap Servers and Give Them OVH SMTP Free and Only Unblock After A Fee Is Paid.

2. Block Port 25 and only unblock after some official ID is given.

3. Only Allow Port 25 to be unblocked after 3 months of having a server until then they have to use SMTP.

4. Only allow x emails an hour from a server. If they want more they have to pay extra for that.

We know you can block ports as you do it with IRC why not with port 25?

There are lots more technical solutions to a problem then just, Annoying good customers. Charging a setup fee is pointless as they use stolen cards and its not there money!

I am glad now that i bought my C-05G As a content delivery server last week!

[unclebob]

A £49 setup fee for an RPS is insane.

Lock port 25 for customers with < 6 months business history. Charge a fee for customers which want port 25 unblocked within the first 6 months.

[DigitalDaz]

Its now often you will see me jump to OVH defence but is this really such a bad thing? It will save me some dosh, I may no longer jost get a c-05 when I want to play with some new project!

It does piss me off slightly that the i7's are gonna be reduced set up because I just paid for one of those too.

Someone above posted £49 setup for a £10 box and that kind of sums up what OVH is trying to stop, its not meant to be a £10 box, its a £10 per month box and I'm sure many do just abuse them for a month.

I was just thinking of starting to resell these myself so if it gives the network a better reputation....

I'm far from a bandwidth guzzler, so I don't know how stretched the network gets but won't this eventually mean that we eventually get a less loaded and more respected network?

[RapidSpeeds]

I am literally disgusted by this... I think you have just shot yourselves in the foot.

Everyone has already made the point clear - you are punishing the 'good' customers.

The jist of it seems to be the exact point Myatu made in great detail, I couldn't have put it better myself.

Stop trying to line your pockets with cash... You have nearly 70k servers sold for a reason.

[AdamD]

Ugh terrible idea in my opinion.
Someone needs to bang whomever's head came up with the idea of a setup fee to curb abuse.

[Myatu]

PS. Sorry for repeating what others have said -- Was in a phone conv. while writing it and there weren't any posts at that point. LOL

[Euan]

Once again proving that you really dont think things through.

99% of these purchases are using stolen credit cards, false information. They dont care about a 49e setup charge. Its your legit customers that you are once again attacking, stop and think before introducing more stupid charges.

You are a budget provider but installation charges outweigh what you provide. It is you that has started the trend for OVH to be known as 3rd biggest spammer in the world and now you turn around and force us to take the hit for your poor initial planning. Had you not allowed your network to be abused in the first place this would not have happened.

Now when people say I want to spam someone where should I get a server they say OVH rather than XYZ.

I think you should foot the bill for your poor management rather than passing it onto the LEGIT customers. This is why I have moved my 5 servers off OVH's network and no longer recommend them to friends, if a friend is looking for a budget server I send them elsewhere.

[Myatu]

Okay, I'm going to rant now, feel free to throw in your thoughts as I'm sure some will disagree.

I had mentioned blocking outgoing traffic to port 25 ages ago.

By default it should be blocked. If someone wants to setup his own mail server, it should be permitted (port unblocked) provided that the customer agrees to a separate contractual obligation NOT to send out X e-mails per hour.

If the customer repeatedly goes over this amount (after having been given a fair warning from OVH), then the customer should be liable for a "service fee".

If the customer thinks that they may go over this hourly amount, perhaps due to a pending e-mail campaign, it should give OVH a fair warning that it might do so BEFORE sending the e-mails.

If you are receiving reports to abuse@ovh.net, you should reserve the right to immediately block port 25 again. If the customer cannot substantiate the reason for the abuse report (ie., the customer had configured the server incorrect and permitted relaying, it was hacked, or there was an e-mail campaign the) then the port should remain blocked and possibly charge a "breach of contract" fee.

Some of the things you should expect from customers before opening port 25:

• E-mail recipient must have given the customer consent via an opt-in procedure, and the customer should retain evidence of such.
• The customer should be able to reproduce this evidence within 72 hours of request by OVH.
• Body of the e-mail should contain information how the e-mail address was obtained (ie., "You requested this e-mail during signup of our service"), details on how to e-mail recipient can find more details about this (in relation to the "evidence" above) as well as the opportunity to stop mailings.
• Not obscure the originating e-mail addresses or IP addresses in the e-mail header.
• Have a working "abuse@mydomain.com" address.

This really can't be too hard to implement, can it?

As for the high turn over of servers: Reward long term customers instead of punishing new customers.

[gigabit]

This is getting stupid... Genuine customers have to suffer because of some bad eggs? Great. I might start looking for servers elsewhere...

Remove setup fees for people who have had OVH servers for more than 6 months perhaps? Or something simmilar...

[MicroChip123]

£50 on a £10 RPS! Are you mad!

Just lock port 25 on the low cost servers. Then ask people to pay extra to have port 25 unblocked OR use the OVH SMTP for free.

About the setup fees you should be able to upgrade your server for a better one without paying setup fees.

[*Mikee*]

I like this idea - Also a 49.99 setup fee on the RPS is over the top (Rip Off)

How about just having one setup fee when you create a NIC handle and then no setup fee to add a server?

[Razakel]

€49 setup fee on an RPS? You are joking, right?

If you are going to have setup fees to discourage abuse, how about decreasing setup fees for "trusted" clients (people who've had a server with you for a few months and you haven't seen problems with abuse with)? Or giving something extra with the setup fees, say, a RIPE block?

Hell, how about just having one setup fee when you create a NIC handle and then no setup fee to add a server?

[*Mikee*]

Hi, it is more than 1 year you turn the turn of the pot asking the same questions and trying to meet a simple issue: how to restrict the turnover? How to limit the abuse?

With almost 70 ' 000 servers lease, the number of abuse is not proportionally larger than 10,000 servers. The same percentage, see less. Except with 70 ' 000 servers, the number of servers who abuse is proportionally larger and much more "professional" customers. Talking does more small abuse or abuse, but outright destruction activity. Indeed, we note more often that our servers are used to make the small vengeances or as a means to bring down a site or a game server or to a DoS. For 30Euro in less than 1 hour there a bomb connected in ready to destroy 100Mbps. Similarly to the level of spam, turnover is the devastation. It does not refer to the case of a "client" that has ordered a servers 20th taking 1000 IP with each servers (Fortunately we have seen and we blocked it until it can use servers). With this kind of abuse, our network was sadly categorized as the 3rd network that spam in the world. All this with a few dozens/hundreds of servers.

It did not all this work is to improve the conditions of those whose activity is damaging to others! But to ensure that the server is accessible, simple and not expensive. And given the number of servers, I think it is on the right road. Now we are going to seriously tackle these "customers" that equate our services to disposable servers and they use as such. We knew and since 14-16 months we tried to take "innovative" measures to try to do not call into question our model business about 3 principles: no installation, the monthly payment fees, no commitment.

And should say that we are not going to get there. It must be "jump" one of the three principles to break this spiral that doesn't stop visibly. We chose to skip the installation costs that they apply only to new orders. And therefore nothing changes for all customers who already have a dedicated server.

3 Months ago it initiated the movement in branch offices, putting in place on the range of servers (except the Kimsufi C - 05 G) installation costs. This produces good results. We will finalize this movement with the Kimsufi C - 05 G in subsidiaries.

We believe that 49Euro installation costs HT represents a huge enough really so an ephemeral activity may no longer be profitable but sufficiently small for about 6-12 months the overall cost does not change not. We will apply these installation on all servers that Ovh offers and in all subsidiaries charges.

And also on the RPS, because we have given the opportunities to spammers have one infra of spam to really not dear full. We therefore now apply 49Euro HT installation fees.
This will limit the movement on the RPS and interest of this offer for short-term activities.

In parallel, Ovh is strengthening its tools on 3 axes: - detection and blocking of attacks generated by our servers with a better management of VM (virtual machine) - protections infrastructure implementation attacks (with filtering very pushed of unnecessary packets that may offer as a service to those who wish to protect themselves).
-tools to limit spam generated by our network (with blocking port 25 some servers that spamment and the obligation to pass through the Ovh SMTP that will filter these spam). Similarly, we limit the number of emails that mutualisés customers can generés every day.
This work will take several months ago, but early 2010 should see the first results.

Best regards octave

[oles@ovh.net]

Hello,

It's been over a year now since you turn the pot by asking the
same questions and trying to answer a problem
simple: how to limit the turnover? how to limit the abuse?

With nearly 70,000 servers out there, the number of cases of abuse is
proportionally greater than about 10,000 servers. It is
the same percentage, or less even. Except with 70,000 servers,
the number of servers that cause abuse is proportionally
larger for customers who are much more "professional". Not to mention
little more than simple abuse, but outright activity
of destruction. Indeed, we see more and more often that
our servers are used for malicious attacks
as a way to bring down a site or game server or
to perform a DoS. For 30euro for less than 1 hour you can have a
server connected by a 100Mbps connection and use it as a bomb ready to destroy. Similarly for
spam, turnover is havoc. It does not mention the case of the "client"
has commissioned a 20th server in 1000 taking with an IP
for each server (fortunately we have seen this and we've blocked
it before he can use the server). With this kind of abuse,
our network has sadly been ranked as the 3rd network for spamming
in the world. All this with a few tens / hundreds of servers.

We did not do all this work is to improve conditions
for those whose business is to harm others! But for the
server to be accessible, simple and cheap. And given the number of
servers, I think we're on the right path. Now, we will
seriously address these "customers" who equate our services to
disposable servers and use them as such. We knew
this and 14-16 months since we tried to take an "innovative"
approach in trying not to jeopardise our business model
which boils down to 3 principles: no setup fee, paying
monthly, no commitment.

And we must admit we do not want to go there. But now we have to
"skip" one of the 3 principles in order to break this spiral that
obviously has not stopped. We chose to skip the
installation costs that they apply only to new
orders. So nothing will change for the clients who already
have a dedicated server.

3 months ago, we initiated the movement in the subsidiaries, through
upping installation costs over the entire range of servers
(except Kimsufi C-05G). This gave us some good results. We will
finalise this movement with the Kimsufi C-05G in subsidiaries.

We believe that the installation fee £49 represents a
sufficient amounts for an ephemeral activity but can
be profitable also and small enough that over 6-12 months
overall costs do not change really. We will therefore apply
the installation costs on all servers that Ovh offers
in all subsidiaries.

And also on the RPS, because we have given full opportunities to
Spammers have an infra spam for really cheap. We
will therefore now apply the cost of installing £49
This will limit the movement of the owner and the value of this offer
for the activities of limited duration.

In parallel, OVH is currently strengthening its tools in 3 areas:
- Detecting and blocking attacks generated by our servers
with better management of VM (virtual machine)
- Establishment of infrastructure protections against
attacks (with very sophisticated filtering of unnecessary packets
we can offer this as a service to those wishing to
protect).
- Tools to limit spam generated by our network
(by blocking port 25 for some servers spamming
and the obligation to pass through the SMTP filter so OVH
can filter the spam). Similarly, we will limit the number of emails
on Shared hosting customers that can be generated each day.
This work will take several more months, but early 2010 is
when we should see the first results.

Regards
Octave