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Incident Support and diagnostics 1 of 3


Thelen
29-07-2010, 05:22
Quote Originally Posted by marks
They offer managed services for 20? 20 per intervention or per month or what? Managed services are normally paid much more than this.
Well Softlayer in USA works out to be roughly $40USD per month per server, roughly the same, and Leaseweb is roughly 40GBP per month per server. Clearly in the same ballpark, certainly not as much as 20GBP per incident.

And, both of those offer large discounts for bulk servers, ie 200GBP for 10 servers with SLA.

freshwire
16-07-2010, 02:14
Anything OPTIONAL is good by me

Myatu
14-07-2010, 21:58
Quote Originally Posted by marks
This is the sort of things that will have to be worked on and see on the final offer. In any case, that wouldn't include the Level 1 interventions, otherwise the server will become unusable.
Okay, good, as that last bit was exactly my thought I think that a 3-strike rule might be something you could consider.

If someone "habitually" asks for a diagnosis but then refuses to accept the results, then I think this customer deserves to be put on a "back burner" after the 3rd time.

Since there are cases where the dispute could be legitimate (as Yonatan's example), a 3-strike rule would eliminate alienating those particular customers.

But other than that, I still think it would provide an excellent additional service to what you currently provide. It's lest costly than a fully manage package, the custromer/admin still has full control over the server (as in, the admin can decide whether or not to fix the issue and how he/she would do so) and from a resale point of view, it could be a boon.

Rilly
14-07-2010, 15:08
I think this is a good offer - getting the opinions from those on the forums though will be a skewed result, because by nature the people here are properly used to troubleshooting things themselves, and are admins in some way or another.. The other 90% of your customer base probably never come to the forum, and many of them I'm sure are more than likely just going to pay the money to have things fixed rather than themselves trying to find answers on simple software fixes.

The question though - what would you support? All OSs, all webservers, etc? Is there a product list that would have experts and some that are best effort due to lack of expertise? I'm in another datacentre, and after giving up on a problem I went for the "managed services" only to find they don't support Debian!

marks
14-07-2010, 12:19
So basically, if you dispute the diagnosis and refuse to pay, you risk losing ANY type of support from OVH (even if it were related to the server and SLA)? I can understand non-payment in general, but I think that before you take these actions you should have a clearly defined dispute resolution in place.
This is the sort of things that will have to be worked on and see on the final offer. In any case, that wouldn't include the Level 1 interventions, otherwise the server will become unusable.

In any case, the diagnosis intervention will always be request by you and plenty of information will be provided to support the claim.

If you want to know, this was thought about because of situations like the one discussed here:
http://forum.ovh.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4256
the engineers had to end up doing the customer's job because he refused to accept the evidence.

Myatu
13-07-2010, 22:34
Quote Originally Posted by marks
Would you think this service? Do you think a diagnosis service for just 20 would be interesting for you? for resellers?
I really like this actually, especially if this is the fee you pay regardless of how long it takes to diagnose the issue (but obviously more to fix it). However, the one thing that did catch my eye was this:

Once the work is done, you have 30 days to pay the diagnostic invoice or estimate. If you do not agree
with the diagnostic or with the work done and / or the proposed fix or diagnostic or estimate, in this case, you pay
nothing and too bad for OVH. But the contract changes: OVH does not provide support anymore for this customer in the future. No commercial. Nor technical. Or incident. The customer has the right to use and renew services but they won't be able to use support or claim the SLA.
So basically, if you dispute the diagnosis and refuse to pay, you risk losing ANY type of support from OVH (even if it were related to the server and SLA)? I can understand non-payment in general, but I think that before you take these actions you should have a clearly defined dispute resolution in place.

yonatan
13-07-2010, 18:58
Quote Originally Posted by marks

If the diagnosis shows that the original problem is a hardware issue, you'll get your money back. But in these cases, you should be providing proofs of the hardware issue yourself so the resolution of the problem will be quicker.
Hello Marks,
regarding this last line, about the difficulty of proof in some cases.

A true story , i had a server that kept going down for no apparent reason, and then came back after i rebooted it into rescue-pro everything worked great...

only after few weeks, the guys noticed the server screen was " black " and the problem was a faulty power supply.
the thing is , it took so long to identify this hardware defect due to the fact nothing registered at the logs and i could not see the screen.

from your point of view its a software issue ( i stated in the ticket that the server is stuck ) , but in fact the hardware was faulty, and we did not have the tools to check that factor ( power supply ).

I understand you guys do the best you can to resolve tickets and fix broken hardware when needed, the thing is ,
the diagnosis can not always be done by the client in some cases.

Another major issue i had recently.
A server which had an overheating CPU, the thing is, the CPU test did not reproduce this issue, but when the server went live it got overheated,
from my side, as a qualified tech with years of experience in IT , i simply did not have the right tools to conduct these tests ( temp ) in rescue-pro.

Please make sure to include the "coretemp" kernel module and the sensors package in the rescue pro distro.
and also a facility to check the power supply - that's all we need at the moment.
is that possible?


waiting on the answer about the cisco ASA

Neil
13-07-2010, 18:37
Quote Originally Posted by jonlewi5
I certainly think a post-mortem of a hacked server would be handy, but also thats something that we can do aswell.
Securtiy just popped into my head as you mentioned optimization.

Kinda like, is this server running software with known exploits that kinda thing. Not a full blown audit though

I know that i would certainly be interested by this myself aswell as optimization
Security is one we have debated for a long time, even when we have offered the paid interventions, the problem is once you have paid us, understandably you expect it to be locked down secure after a hack. However we could not guarantee that, maybe we miss a backdoor and your server is still insecure.

It has been noted, but security may not be offered.

jonlewi5
13-07-2010, 18:13
I certainly think a post-mortem of a hacked server would be handy, but also thats something that we can do aswell.
Securtiy just popped into my head as you mentioned optimization.

Kinda like, is this server running software with known exploits that kinda thing. Not a full blown audit though

I know that i would certainly be interested by this myself aswell as optimization

marks
13-07-2010, 18:06
Will this also be looking at security aswell?
good question. What can of diagnosis regarding the security would you think about? post-mortem investigation of a hacked server? Remember that we are always talking about diagnosis, not interventions (we won't be fixing stuff for you, just find out things).

jonlewi5
13-07-2010, 17:43
Will this also be looking at security aswell?

marks
13-07-2010, 17:39
Usually when i need support regarding fixing broken software, it tends to be in the worst cases ( hardware fault )....
This is included on the support and you'll never be charged for it.

will you provide managed support service also to devices? ( cisco ASA )
That's interesting. I'll pass it on to our head offices.


The big question about these "managed tickets " is when do you say NO, in what cases?
Basically, this diagnosis tickets would be for things that we don't support at the moment. OVH guarantees and take responsibility for the hardware. We're talking about any problem you have regarding software you want us to diagnosis: grub configuration problem, driver issue, server configuration, optimization, .... that you don't know how to do it.

It would be only diagnosis, the engineers won't be fixing anything, only telling you what's wrong or what you have to work on or where is there origin of the problem.

If the diagnosis shows that the original problem is a hardware issue, you'll get your money back. But in these cases, you should be providing proofs of the hardware issue yourself so the resolution of the problem will be quicker.

yonatan
13-07-2010, 14:55
Usually when i need support regarding fixing broken software, it tends to be in the worst cases ( hardware fault )....

why not offer IP-KVM per usage basis ....
and with NO setup fee.

or do the same as some major DC's around the world, first X hours are free, then u pay fee for the IP-KVM per hour...

In this case, just replace the defected part, and let me do the rest by myself ....


The big question about these "managed tickets " is when do you say NO, in what cases?
does this means you will not update your help.ovh.co.uk pages anymore, and instead offer the service in the form of payment?

will you provide managed support service also to devices? ( cisco ASA )
say a client is great with his Windows server for example but knows 0 about cisco and really wants to setup his VPN and filtering, will the paid support cover this?

this link is dead : http://help.ovh.co.uk/SimpleLoadBalancing

marks
13-07-2010, 12:11
The thing is that now, sometimes, engineers are forced to do already this service for case where the customer cannot find the problem (and keeps on insisting it's an OVH problem). You can imagine that this takes a lot of time from the engineers when it's not included in the support given.

I agree with the language bit, but I don't think our engineers don't understand the things. A different thing is trying to get an engineer to check an issue that he's not suppose to deal with (outside the support). With this extra service, this diagnosis will be part of their job and therefore, you'll be paying an engineer to look into it.

but most competitors offer a managed server for that price - not a one off fee.
They offer managed services for 20? 20 per intervention or per month or what? Managed services are normally paid much more than this.

Still, this service being discussed here is not managed services, it's diagnosis service.

Also, how does that work in terms of SLA?
That would have it's own terms of service. We don't have many details about SLA. But it's a good point, I'll try to find out more.

Any other ideas?

RapidSpeeds
13-07-2010, 12:01
Quote Originally Posted by marks
what do you guys think about this?

Would you think this service? Do you think a diagnosis service for just 20 would be interesting for you? for resellers?
Sounds like a bad idea - are we going to be dealing with OVH UK Support, or the engineers with their broken English and a terrible understanding of things?

If it was UK support we dealt with exclusively, maybe - but most competitors offer a managed server for that price - not a one off fee.

Also, how does that work in terms of SLA?

marks
13-07-2010, 11:44
what do you guys think about this?

The incident support now has two missions:

- If you have a problem with your service and you do not know where to look or what to look for, you create an incident ticket to request a diagnosis on your problem. This diagnosis will be charged €20euro ex VAT. If during the diagnostic OVH has solved the problem, you only pay €20euro ex VAT. If the problem is not fixed, OVH provides you with a diagnostic quote to solve the problem. If you like it, you can accept it and OVH does the job. OVH may also only provide estimates and in this case you do not pay for the diagnostic. If we figure out that we do not have the internal competances to do the job, you of course will not be charged for the diagnostic.

- If you have a problem with the service and you think that is the fault of OVH, you can create an incident in the same way as that of the charged diagnostic. OVH performs the diagnostic and if the problem is really on ths side of Ovh, all is covered by the service guarantee. However, if it is not the fault of OVH, we revert to the diagnostic principle and charge the €20euro ex VAT.
Would you think this service? Do you think a diagnosis service for just 20 would be interesting for you? for resellers?

oles@ovh.net
11-06-2010, 14:06
Hello
In 2008, we established two supports:
- Commercial & Technical Support
- Incident Support

But we have not changed the service definition that Ovh must give to our customers. The contract prohibits
OVH to intervene on data hosted even if it is to troubleshoot or fix a mistake made by the customer. The role of OVH is that of a technology provider who makes available to its customers, technical means. Legally speaking the job of diagnostic support is to determine the responsibilities incurred by OVH . And so if it is an issue on the part of OVH, then OVH fixes it. If it is a problem on the
customer's side, then the customer fixes it. OVH does not fix problems from the customer's side.

Therefore, to solve some problems, we can only suspend the site or put the server in rescue ... Support is very binary. 0 or 1.
Apart from that, OVH is sometimes "nice" and in a trusting relationship with some known clients we sometimes help these clients more than the contract allows us ...

But that's the contract today. And that's how the service is rendered. It is ideally suited to our
core customers, the net pros, the resellers, sysadmins and the people who use OVH because of our technical capabilities. The famous Level 3, the software that that doesn't work well are not part of the "standard" of services which reach our customers.

Over time, our customers have evolved and they have less and less time to work at this level 3 but also
we have new customers, who are not web pros and don't want to be. It is often they, who say that support is not good. While analysing their applications we quickly came to the conclusion that:
This is not our job. And that's what we will change ...

This will now also be the job for support. The contract will evolve to guide interventions on OVH
customer data and on what Ovh can or cannot do with or without the consent of the customer, when they must contact the customer and what permission must be sought or approved, etc., etc..

So it is therefore the incident support that brings it together ...

The incident support has now two missions:

- If you have a problem with your service and you do not know where to look or what to look for, you create an incident ticket to request a diagnostic on your problem. This diagnostic will be charged 20 ex VAT. If during the diagnostic OVH has solved the problem, you only pay 20 ex VAT. If the problem is not fixed, OVH provides you with a diagnostic quote to solve the problem. If you like it, you can accept it and OVH does the job. OVH may also only provide estimates and in this case you do not pay for the diagnostic. If we figure out that we do not have the internal skills to do the job, and you will of course not be charged for the diagnostic.

- If you have a problem with the service and you think that it's OVH's fault, you can create an incident in the same way as that of the charged diagnostic. OVH performs the diagnostic and if the problem is really on the OVH's side, all is covered by the service guarantee. Otherwise, we revert to the diagnostic principle and charge 20 ex VAT.

Payment.

Once the work is done, you have 30 days to pay the diagnostic invoice or estimate. If you do not agree with the diagnostic or with the work done and / or the proposed fix or diagnostic or estimate, in this case, you pay nothing and too bad for OVH. But the contract changes: OVH does not provide support anymore for this customer in the future. No commercial. Nor technical. Or incident. The customer has the right to use and renew services but they won't be able to use support or claim the SLA.

This new incident support allows :
- As always, that OVH will solve problems which are the responsibility of OVH
- Perform diagnostics and estimates for problems which are not the responsibility of OVH
- Announce the charges before the start of the diagnostic (20) and the work (the quotation)
- In the case of quotation acceptance, immediate start (without pay)
- To have a dispute system resolution with a simple resolution of conflicts (too bad for OVH ... plus
amounts outstanding Ovh risk losing the customer ...)

This proposal was discussed 4-5 months ago on the mailing list. It's a balance that seems fair
and we have not had any negative feedback. If this is the case: oles@ovh.net

This plan starts Monday. The diagnostics through June are free (time to set up billing).

All the best

Octave